I Won’t Envy is a new podcast series by Vivek Shraya co-produced with Buddies in Bad Times.
Episode one, featuring drag artists Denim + Pythia, drops November 27 (and in the meantime, you can get tickets for Denim + Pythia’s Oraculum, which premieres at Buddies December 5).
Listen to the podcast trailer and subscribe here.
Read on for cheeky excerpts from Vivek, Denim, and Pythia’s conversation about jealousy, drag race, fan culture, and more. The text below has been edited for brevity.
An Introduction to Denim and Pythia’s Work
Vivek: I’m Vivek Shraya, and you’re listening to “I Won’t Envy.” I’m talking to Denim and Pythia, both known for their appearances on Canada’s Drag Race. Denim’s non drag name is Emerson Sanderson. He’s a transgender autistic multidisciplinary artist based in Montreal, Quebec. His practice mainly exists through video, textile, drag performance, photography, electronic, and cyber arts, exploring themes of identity, toxic positivity, harm reduction, the act of surveillance, and the cis gaze.
Emerson channels the majority of his artistic practice through a drag persona known as Denim, who was created as a representation of the hyper feminine persona he used as a safety blanket before having access to medical transition.
Pythia is a non-binary drag queen and performer living in Montreal, Canada. Originally from Greece, she has a background in theatre set, costume, and makeup design, as well as photography and graphic arts.
Drag combines her love for fashion, history, pop culture, storytelling, and makeup into one, allowing her to create unique experiences through her performances and mystify audiences around the world.
Jealousy in Drag Competition
I wanted to talk to Denim and Pythia because I was curious how professional jealousy plays out in an art form that is so often connected to competition.
Denim: Since it’s such an accessible thing online — like drag is literally everywhere — and we all follow each other and we’re so intertwined with each other’s lives.
It’s so easy to see what everyone else is doing all of the time, and and feel kind of, I don’t know, like it’s very easy to compare yourself.
Vivek: Do you have like, like a nemesis, you know, like somebody who in particular, you’re kind of a little bit obsessed with you’re kind of jealous of. You’re always tracking what they’re doing.
You’re like, fuck, like, this person’s doing this, this, like, do you have like a specific person? You don’t have to share who it is. But I’m just curious if you have like, yeah, like a jealousy nemesis, a jealousis.
Pythia: That’s so funny.
Denim: No, I think there’s definitely, like, specific people that I like gravitate towards that I compare myself to.
And also like in the Drag Race world, like, it’s so easy for the fan base to, like, compare you to other [drag artists]. Yes. It’s such a common thing to happen that […] it’s so easy to do that to yourself as well.
Vivek: Did you want to add something, Pythia?
Pythia: Yeah. yeah. I think that’s such an interesting concept about the social media and the fandom that contributes to that sort of jealousy, because, there’s a few people that I have that are technically nemeses, but not nemeses, because that’s maybe like a very strong word.
Yes, yes. Very specific. There are specific people that I, you know, get compared to, a lot. And I understand there’s so many franchises right now and there’s so much you can do and there’s so much that people’s understanding of drag and art is, especially young fans. so it’s easy to make those comparisons. And I never actually saw myself as these people, and I never actually compared myself as these people.
But since there’s been so much comparison and so much commentary on how much I remind them of, them or how much, you know, maybe my costume that I wore — or something that they wore on the show or, you know, or their facial features or it has gotten me to a point where I’m just kind of over it and I’m just like, mad.
And every time I see them, I — it’s like, f*ck. there’s a few, there’s a few. So yes, I will admit, I’m sorry, but it’s true.
Vivek: Oh no, this is the point of the conversation.
Jealousy and the Drag Race Fan Base
Vivek: One of the things I find so interesting about this is that there’s the people you maybe have feelings about, but then there’s ways that you’re pitted against somebody without your choice.
Pythia: Exactly.
Vivek: The fandom compares you to people. And then suddenly now you’re comparing yourself to this person that you didn’t even clock before. And I’m curious, Denim, how do you manage that? You know, it’s one thing to manage your own feelings of being compared, but when the fandom is comparing you to someone else, like how do you manage those feelings?
Denim: I think sometimes it’s hard to not like, take it personally and not, like, hyperfixate on separating yourself from that artist in a way, because I think this fandom has a very narrow view of what drag is sometimes. They’re only seeing what they’re being shown in like a mainstream light, and what’s on TV.
But drag is so much more than what we see on Drag Race. I guess I just try to remember what my drag means to me. Like what I’m doing it for. And like, I’ve been doing this like long before Drag Race and long before I knew these people or was like connected to these people or compared to these people. And yeah, I just try to like, remember the essence of, like, what I do.
Vivek: Yeah. That’s beautiful. I mean, I think that’s something that’s coming up in these conversations a bit, is this idea that, like, one of the ways to manage jealousy is to try to recentre yourself, try to remember, like why you do what you do, why it’s important to you.
Drag Race Comparisons: Pythia’s Awkward Encounter
Vivek: Pythia, I’m wondering with the other artists you’ve been compared to, have you ever had a transparent conversation with each other? Have you been like, oh man, this really sucks that we get pitted against each other. We get compared to each other. I’m wondering if part of, like, navigating jealousy in the context of drag is like being able to just like, have a real conversation with these other artists, because they’re probably feeling it too, right? So I’m just curious if you’ve ever had that kind of transparent conversation.
Pythia: It’s very funny that you mention that actually, because yes, I have had an actual face to face encounter with one of the people that I get compared to a lot. And I was kind of curious. I’m like, are they aware of the comparisons? Because they’re much bigger than me.
They’re obviously in the American franchise. They’re, they have a bigger following. So I was like, do they even know who I am? Do they even know about these comparisons? And to my surprise, I go to one of their shows and I am mingling afterwards to say hi, because there’s a few other people in the cast that I know and I wanted to say hi to, and they come up to me and the very first thing that they say is like, stop copying me.
Vivek: Oh!
Pythia: And I was like, and honestly, I was just so excited to meet them and talk about the show. But once they said that, I was like, don’t flatter yourself. And I literally just walked, because I swear to you, I have never like, even went on their page for inspiration ever, you know? So it’s so weird that this negativity had festered, but not of our doing.
But anyway, yeah, it was very, very uncomfortable.
Vivek: Oh, that’s so heartbreaking because like, in an ideal world, right. What would could have happened in that moment is both of you have like a moment of solidarity, like this person clearly knew who you were.
Denim on Being the Second Trans Man on the Drag Race Franchise
Vivek: Denim, have you ever has your jealousy ever gone like, what’s one of the worst ways your jealousy has manifested?
I’m just thinking about what happened to Pythia. And I’m curious, like, if you’ve ever, like, maybe lashed out or you’ve, like, you know, reacted in a really strong way, like, have you ever, has your jealousy taken you to a bad place?
Denim: Yeah. Like being the second trans man on Drag Race. Like there’s not many people to compare it to.
So yeah, I’ve, I’ve been compared to Gottmik a lot because we’re both trans men and it’s kind of a new idea for kind of like the more mainstream audience of Drag Race. And yeah, when I was on my season, I got compared to her a lot, and a lot of people would say I was like, the knockoff, Gottmik, the cheap Gottmik.
Vivek: Oh no, oh no.
Denim: And I addressed it, not in a way that was like, hateful towards her. It’s just like the fact that someone can see, like, two trans men and automatically associate them with each other based off of their transness when, like, our aesthetics are so vastly different. Like if we were both cis men, like, we would never be compared. That’s the hypocrisy of it.
Pythia on Naming Jealousy and Coming Back to Her Own Artistry
Vivek: Pythia, when you feel jealous, do you always know it’s jealousy, or does it take you some time to name it to yourself? Or like, what do you do in those moments?
Pythia: Yeah, I think I’m mature enough. I would think so. To recognize that it is jealousy and it’s like I said, it’s not malicious or evil.
It’s just sometimes, like I said in the beginning, if I see maybe a concept or maybe a costume or something that I either had in mind, but I never executed and somebody else did it. And then I’m like, I’m disappointed in myself like, I should have done it when I first had the inspiration. Or sometimes when I do something and I have done it and somebody else does it, but then it gets more attention or more appreciation and I’m like, aaaagh.
Denim: That’s literally happening to me right now.
Vivek: How do you deal with that?
Pythia: Well, I just let it go, really. I just don’t really think about it too much. I… what I do is special to me in my own way. And I do it not just for the recognition, I do it also for the artistry and the storytelling and the meaning that it has to me.
And I just, like I said, I have to ground myself back into that mindset. Except it’s kind of hard with social media, because I feel like a lot of artistry has been lost in the sort of sea of approval that you need to get online, especially with drag, and especially with the subculture and Drag Race. And, you know, you… it’s a constant like fight to sort of stay relevant and make the, you know, new costumes, new hair, new posts.
And. Yeah, it’s it’s very… it’s a strange what’s it called? Tightrope. Like a strange balance.
Vivek: Balance? Yeah. I’m curious and you know, this feeling sometimes that another artist is able to do something that you’ve always wanted but didn’t quite execute. Do you ever find that your jealousy then inspires you in a positive way where you’re like, fuck it, next time I’m going to take I’m going to raise the bar.
Like, if you ever see someone do something so amazing that you’re just like, I’m going to take it to the next level, maybe I’ll throw that question, to you Pythia.
Pythia: Yeah. That’s actually such a beautiful thing that you just said, that I’m thinking about. It’s the fact that I feel like jealousy can also be turned into inspiration.
That’s very interesting. So thank you for that. But yeah, it’s true I mean it’s just, it just makes me want to do more and showcase more of my artistry and showcase more of my work and then just, yeah, stay true to myself. Yeah, I know there’s been moments that, you know, where there’s certain trends and, social media drag really sort of thrives on trends and, accumulation of, how do you say, like capitalizing on those trends.
And sometimes you either miss them or you just are very late to participate in those, and then it just kind of dies down, and then you just kind of like, fuck, I should have done more. I should have pushed it more, and I should have tried to be part of that huge wave. But yeah, I’m just kind of learning in the past few years to just let go of that and just keep true to myself because sometimes I found I’ve had to compromise a lot of my artistry to appeal an audience that I think wanted to see what I, well — I did what I thought people wanted to see out of me, especially the first few years after Drag Race. But I feel like right now I’m kind of reverting to that point where I’m just kind of trusting myself as an artist and just do what makes me special. And what got me onto that point, in the first place, because, yeah, it’s otherwise it gets too muddy.
Denim on Learning from Her Jealousy
Vivek: What have you learned from your jealousy, or what can jealousy teach us?
Denim: I think sometimes, like it’s fairly easy for me to get like absorbed in those feelings.
And like, become overwhelmed with jealousy or comparison. And the ways that I take myself out of it are really to like, go back to my intention, like we were talking about before, think about all the reasons that I do make the art that I’m making and who I want to be making it for. And really let that inspire me to keep going.
I think like a little bit of jealousy is good because it’s always pushing you in creative ways, like maybe ways that you wouldn’t have thought of before, or it’s giving you the motivation to do things that you maybe wouldn’t have done.
Hear more of Vivek’s conversation with Denim and Pythia here, wherever you get your podcasts!
I Won’t Envy is sponsored by the Queer and Trans Research Lab at the Bonham Centre for Sexual Diversity Studies at University of Toronto.