Vivek Shraya and Alicia Elliott discuss the personal pride and professional currency in literary awards, confronting jealousy head on, giving people they’re jealous of the benefit of the doubt, and always coming back to making the art they want to make. Read on for excerpts from their conversation!
About Alicia Elliott
I’m Vivek Shraya, and you’re listening to I Won’t Envy. Today I’m talking to Alicia Elliott. Alicia Elliott is a Mohawk writer and editor currently living in Brantford, Ontario with her family. Her bestselling first book, A Mind Spread Out on the Ground, was nominated for the Hillary Weston Writers’ Trust Prize for non-fiction and won the Forest of Reading Evergreen Award. Her debut novel, And Then She Fell was an instant bestseller and was longlisted for the women’s prize for fiction. I wanted to talk to Alicia because I’ve always admired her fearless commitment to tackling difficult subjects.
Professional Jealousy and the Moving Goal Posts of Ambition
Alicia Elliott: It feels like in some ways being in the arts and stuff like that, or just being in society maybe, is conducive to creating these notions of jealousy.
Because I’ve kind of, I’ve thought about this a lot and I’ve talked to other like new writers about it because I feel like, you know, when you’re first starting out in any sort of arts venture, you have these ideas, like you have this goal, you’re like, “I’m gonna write a book.” And then you write the book and then all of a sudden, you’ve achieved that goal.
So you’ve got to change the goal post, you’ve got to move it. Now I want to get this book published, or I want to get an agent or all of these things, right? And as soon as you get that, I feel like we don’t even give ourselves a chance to celebrate that or think about how hard we work to get those things. Immediately it’s on to the next, on to the next. What can I get next? Like we’re almost like trying, seeing all of these accomplishments as like, you know, not to like be too dramatic about it, but almost like land to conquer, right? To like stick our like, flags in and be like, I did this, you know what I mean? Which I feel like is a very Western way of looking at things.
Jealousy in the Canadian Literary Scene
Alicia Elliott: But that’s also the way that the world operates. It’s like we always have to be hustling. And we always have to be grinding. And there’s never going to be, OK, I did this and now I don’t have to work anymore. I don’t have to do things. So you’re always trying to figure out what is the next way I’m going to basically earn a living. If I get this award, for example, maybe I won’t have to work as hard for the next little bit. So then all of a sudden it’s like, that person was up for the award. And, you know, and then you start to get into, even when you like people who have won awards or gotten any sort of professional accomplishments. And there’s that little tiny voice in your head that’s like, what should have been me? (Laughing). Why? Just because.
Vivek Shraya: Okay, yes. And like in those moments, like how do you manage that, that feeling where you’re like, you see, you go on Twitter and you’re like, so and so got the award nomination that you didn’t, or whatever.
For me, my jealousy is so, like it’s not even it’s not even sensical because like some years it’s like I haven’t even put out a book. Like, why did I expect I’d be nominated? It’s like, you know, it’s not like, you know, it’s like no one’s gone through the back catalog suddenly for a Giller or whatever it is. So, yeah. So I’m curious in that moment, though, like how or maybe not in that moment like how have you navigated those feelings and like do you even name it to yourself?
Naming Jealousy and Humanizing Artist Award Juries
Alicia Elliott: Sometimes maybe I hesitate to name it to myself because from the beginning of my career until now I’ve tried to think of it very logically. I try to logic it out, you know, so let’s say, “Giller nominations” or whatever, right? Just as an example, I tell myself, “okay, there are what, five people on this jury, all of whom have very diverse tastes.” And I’ve been on grant and award juries. And sometimes not everyone is going to agree on what is the best or even what they like the most.
Some people’s favorite is going to be something another person hates. And when you’re in those situations, then it’s kind of like, what can we all agree on at least? You know? And so I try relate it back to my own experiences where, maybe an award was given to someone where I’m like, I wouldn’t have given that award to that person because I like this other thing better.
It’s not like the work that was awarded isn’t good. It’s just personal. I like something else better. So much of it comes down to these personal preferences that often people don’t really think too hard about, you know, when they’re doing it. They’re like, I just like this better. And then it’s only when we start to get into these discussions with other jurors where all of a sudden we have to rationalize our taste. So I try to at this point to keep that in mind. However, even with that, there’s always going to be something where someone [gets an award that I don’t] and I’m like, ah, man, that would have been great [to get].
Vivek Shraya: Well, especially if there’s a cash prize.
Alicia Elliott: Yes, absolutely. And I think that’s the thing too. At the end of the day, you’re like, oh, man, I really could use some of that cash. That would have been amazing. That would have been life changing. So even now when I feel those things, I try to let myself kind of just acknowledge it. Sometimes I hesitate, like I said, to name it as jealousy and be like, “I’m just in my feelings.” Afterward, I’ll try to talk with someone who I trust. Usually that’s my husband to be like, “hey, I’m feeling a certain way about this. It doesn’t mean that I’m not happy for the people that were nominated or that there wasn’t amazing work.” Because often there is, it’s not even a question of that. It’s just this feeling of inadequacy, your own self-doubt about what you’re producing, or the level of your art. Wanting that validation, right? And I think that that’s, it’s hard to, I don’t know, hard to ever feel fully validated that your work is, you know…
Vivek Shraya: Good?
Alicia Elliott: Good. In some sense, like good or important.
Vivek Shraya: I mean, it’s interesting, this point about being on a jury, because I think the few times I’ve been on a jury, it’s been eye-opening, because you’re right. So often the thing that gets chosen — the book, the application — it’s the one we all can agree on. There’s also all kinds of, to be totally transparent, political issues that can inform those decisions.
Last year, we gave it to this kind of individual. So this year, we need to be thinking about this particular box to fill, you know? There are all kinds of things that we never know in the background.
So I can definitely relate to that method, both of your methods — the sort breaking down the behind the scenes jury, and then also having that sort of tender moment with your partner. I definitely have that as well where I’m like, “oh, I’m feeling a little sore about this.”
Professional Jealousy and Personal Relationships
Vivek Shraya: Do you find that your professional jealousy is accelerated or lessened depending on whether or not you actually know the individual? And do you find that it’s easier for you to manage your jealousy if they’re more known to you as opposed to a stranger, or do you find it’s the opposite?
Alicia Elliott: I’ll talk vaguely because I just had my novel come out in this cycle of awards season, right? And there are all these awards that happened. My book was not nominated for pretty much any of them. And that’s fine.
But the thing is, I think when I’ve read work that I’m like, that’s a very good book. And then also kind of going along with that, [if I have] met this person, and this person is lovely, then that I think makes it easier for me. When it’s hard is when I’ve read something, and I’m like, this is trash, really? So like this is getting all the attention. That’s when it gets under my skin.
Vivek Shraya: That makes sense.
The Currency of Creative Awards and Capitalism
Alicia Elliott: And when someone is not gracious about something, or seems like they aren’t appreciating what they have, I get a little bit like, I would love to have that. And they’re just like, it’s whatever.
Vivek Shraya: Oh, 100%, the people that annoy me the most are the people that are like, “I don’t care about awards.” I’m like, I’m sorry, I don’t care who you are, I just don’t buy it. It doesn’t mean that everybody feels super validated or happy about it, but I think on some level, some people have the privilege of not caring, right?
Depending on how acknowledged you are elsewhere, how much money you’re making elsewhere, whatever it is, awards or whatever gives an individual… If you have opportunities all the time, if you don’t even need to be on social media, then yeah, maybe like another award doesn’t mean anything to you. But for a lot of us, awards can mean the difference in advance size. It can mean the difference between a one book deal versus two book deal. [With awards] there’s the internal validation, but there’s also the real capitalist result of being a prize nominee or award nominee, right?
One of the things that is occurring to me as we’re talking about this is that I too find that if I’ve engaged with the work and the work is good, according to me, and I know the individual, it’s harder for me to project onto them and therefore it’s harder to feel jealous and I can tap into a genuine feeling of happiness for that individual.
Can We Prevent Professional Jealousy?
Vivek Shraya: I wonder if one of the ways to work through professional jealousy is to develop stronger community. I think part of the problem is we’re so siloed. I think about the last time I had a conversation with you, like obviously I see you online. I’m so happy for your success and, you know, so happy whenever you announce something, but we don’t get to have a lot of conversation with each other.
I wonder if we made more of an active effort to engage in relationship building and /or engaging in the work of others in our field, would it help prevent feelings of jealousy?
Alicia Elliott: I don’t know that it would necessarily prevent feelings of jealousy. I think just speaking to me personally, even when I do love the book, even when I think the person is lovely, there’s always still, I think for me anyways, a little, like a little thing that’s like, yeah, like, oh, that, that inner devastation. But it’s easier for me to get over when that’s the case.
Vivek Shraya: Yeah, no, yeah. I think prevent is the wrong word. I don’t think the issue is about preventing it. And that’s sort of the point of this conversation is like understanding that it is something that we feel, but it’s more like abate, is that the right word? Like to lessen or to get over it.
Alicia Elliott On Experiences of Jealousy From Other Artists
Vivek Shraya: Have you ever experienced what you think is jealousy by another artist or was suspected and another artist was jealous of you?
I know it’s one of those hard questions ’cause you don’t wanna be that person that’s like, that person’s jealous of me, but I’m curious if you feel like that’s happened to you or maybe someone’s even said to you, “I’m jealous of you.”
Alicia Elliott: Most of the people that I’ve encountered are pretty normal, I would say about it. And honest about it, kind of saying, “oh, I felt kind of jealous.” I feel like that’s honest. I appreciate that kind of authenticity instead of carrying it.
Vivek Shraya: Yeah, you like the honesty? You like when people tell you directly?
Alicia Elliott: Yeah, I would rather that than like, ’cause I don’t know, something about in my head, I’m like, we’re wasting time. If you’re just like tiptoeing around it and then carrying this resentment, I would rather you just talk to me about it and then we kind of like go through it and then we can move on, right? Theoretically.
Vivek Shraya: Yeah, I mean, that’s so interesting ’cause I definitely have had people say that to me and I’m always like let’s all self-regulate, you know? Like I like the idea of naming it to ourselves, naming it to our friends, naming it to our partner, but like I think that there are some things you don’t need to say to the individual because then it’s just awkward, like what do you say then? You’re like thanks? Sorry?
Alicia Elliott: Yes, yes. Okay, I think there is a difference between someone who’s just, like, I think it depends on the person who’s saying it to you too, right?
Vivek Shraya: Yeah, sure, sure, sure.
Alicia Elliott: So if they’re like someone you barely talk to and they’re like, oh my God, I’m so jealous of you. And you’re like, okay, I don’t know where to go with this conversation. That is bizarre. By all means, what am I supposed to say, thanks? Yeah, like, I don’t know.
Dispelling the Myth of Overnight Success
Alicia Elliott: But, if someone is just like, says things that I think, ’cause I think most people that I know who’ve said things kind of imply things, like, Oh, it seems like, you know, your career kind of blew up out of nowhere and stuff like that.
And, you know, not understanding, of course, that I was working full time at Starbucks when my career started. I was raising a kid, I was full time working in, like, basically, like a minimum wage, a little higher than minimum wage. But like a really, generally, everyone considers those shitty customer service jobs. Then coming home and trying to write in between and stuff like that.
People don’t acknowledge that part of it, they think “oh this just came out of nowhere,” and I’m like dude, in some sense it feels like that’s negating… Like, I did not get accepted into any master’s programs a lot of the people who say these things did, and so they had these opportunities. I had to figure out other ways to do that which meant I wasn’t doing these things in school, I was actively trying to publish things in places to build up my CV so that I could apply for grants.
So they were doing stuff in school. I was doing this and, you know, I think when people say certain things like, “oh, it seems like your career just kind of came out of nowhere.” There’s this underlying sense of like, “how did you do it?” Like, so I could do it too or like, “what advice could you give me?” And I’m like, I don’t have any advice.
Vivek Shraya: But see, that’s a better question. But that’s a better question, right? Like do you have some advice? Like again, I think this is where self-regulating, like you can feel jealous, but if you actually are able to break it down the way you did just now and to be able to like offer that generosity to someone else to be like, I don’t know their backstory. I don’t know what Alicia’s been through to get to this position where Alicia got this amazing book deal or whatever it is, but I would love to know how Alicia did it. Why don’t I ask Alicia that question?
That to me feels like so much more productive, like a productive way to work through your jealousy is to like give someone the benefit of the doubt, understand that you don’t have the full story of their success no matter what you think you know, and then turn it into an opportunity to have dialogue or conversation or ask for advice.
Alicia Elliott: Yeah. And I think that that’s something that maybe people, depending on like where they’re at in their life or their career or whatever, maybe are ashamed to ask, but I don’t know. I think that those are the kinds of questions, like anything that leads to actual discussion and understanding as opposed to… because like you referenced earlier, a lot of like jealousy is like you’re projecting things onto someone [and] it might have nothing to do with them, you know what I mean?
It’s harder to [project on someone] when you actually talk to someone and they break down what actually happened behind the scenes that they didn’t see when all they saw was like an announcement online or something, right?
Vivek Shraya: Yeah, I mean, I find announcement time for me interesting just in terms of the kinds of comments. There the comments that are like, “congratulations, amazing.” But there are always the comments that are like, “another book, I can’t keep up with what you’re doing.” Or like, “when do you sleep?” And I’m not saying that those are necessarily coming from jealousy. I think that yeah, social media creates an environment where we do compare ourselves to each other. Of course. But again, I’m like, if someone had a new baby, I wouldn’t be like, “another one?”
Alicia Elliott: I mean, maybe we — I think it, if someone had like five children, but, you know… but we wouldn’t say it.
Vivek Shraya: No, exactly, self-regulate!
Learning From and Regulating Jealousy
Vivek Shraya: Okay, so I’m curious, we’ve talked about this a little bit. Have you learned anything from jealousy or what can jealousy teach us?
Alicia Elliott: Maybe this is like a very therapy type answer or something. But I think whenever you have really strong reactions to something that feel kind of outsized to what is actually happening, I think it’s a good practice to kind of be like, where is this coming from? What insecurity is this touching?
Everybody talks about [jealousy] as though it’s this terrible thing. But at the end of the day, it’s like there’s this bruise covering your entire body and anything that happens, it could touch it and then it’s activated, it hurts and you’re in pain.
One of the things that I try to remind myself [when jealousy starts] affecting what I’m thinking about, like, is this gonna fit in, is this gonna alienate readers, is this part of my brand, whatever a brand is… I try to think about, like, what’s my favourite book? What’s my favourite movie? What’s my favourite album? And what kind of, I guess, outward like awareness, appreciation, what awards did this get? What sales did this do?
And [when you go] back to that space where it’s just you and your relationship with a piece of art, those things don’t matter. Some of the books that I really love never got any sort of attention, especially not awards or like great sales. Sometimes like if the person has passed away, [their work] didn’t blow up until after they died. Art has a very particular relationship with each individual, and we as artists can’t dictate what sort of relationship someone is going to have with our art. At the end of the day, all we can control is what we made.
I try to come back to that, like, did I write the book I wanted to write? Often the answer is yes.
Professional Jealousy is Never About the Other Person
Vivek Shraya: Totally, I mean, I think one of the things that I feel like you’re making me cognizant of is the fact that ultimately jealousy is actually never about the other person. It’s like when you talk about going inside and talking to that insecure little self or that bruised part of you, that actually that bruise or that insecurity or that doubt, all of those things actually have nothing to do with the other person. Nothing to do with their art or their award or whatever is that you’re jealous of.
I think it really makes sense then that the work is then to actually go back to yourself and be able to be like “am I making the art that I want to make in the world?” “Am I being the kind of artist that I want to be in the world?” I think that those are all the questions that matter the most.
Similar to what you’re saying, I think one of the things I try to remember is that like, this is a bit morbid, but like, when I when I die, if people, including close people, like family or friends, they talk about my art, if my art is something that comes up, like, who cares what prize it was nominated for, who cares how many weeks it was a national bestseller? I hope that what people say is actually that I made art that was challenging or meaningful or made them see the world in a different way. And you can’t actually measure those things and those aren’t actually things that you can be jealous of in another person you know. That’s another thing that helps me recalibrate in those moments of like, what actually matters here?
Vivek Shraya: Anything else you wanted to say that we didn’t get to cover or anything that we didn’t hit?
Alicia Elliott: I’m jealous of your fashion sense. Every time I see a picture, I’m like, “Damn, damn, damn.”
Vivek Shraya: I’ll take it.
Alicia Elliott: The accessories, with that outfit, everything is working.
Vivek Shraya: Thank you, I’ll take it, I’ll take it, I’ll take that.