Why do I feel jealous if I don’t want what they have? Vivek Shraya and Sara Quin discuss professional jealousy throughout Tegan and Sara’s come up in the music industry, meaning making in the day to day, finding and defining success that feels satisfying, and not wanting to be at Fashion Week.
About I Won’t Envy, a Podcast by Vivek Shraya
Vivek Shraya: I Won’t Envy is a podcast about professional jealousy in creative fields. In my own career, I’ve had to confront the fact that jealousy is a byproduct of being an artist, and that no amount of repressing or denying it can make it go away. In fact, my most successful strategy to manage my professional jealousy has been to name it.
But what are other strategies? In each episode, I’ll be talking to artists in different creative fields to learn about their relationships to professional jealousy and how they’ve come to understand it and navigate it.
About Sara Quin
Throughout their 20 plus year career spanning ten studio albums and more than a million records sold, Tegan and Sara have used their music as a medium for storytelling. With that storytelling at its core, they have built a multifaceted media empire that extends into TV, books, newsletters, and public service, always deeply rooted in music.
With multiple Juno and GLAAD Award wins, a Governor General’s Performing Arts Award, honorary Doctor of Law degrees from the University of Calgary, the 2018 New York Civil Liberties Union Award, and numerous Grammy and Polaris Prize Award nominations, Tegan and Sara have much to be proud of. But their crowning achievement thus far is the Tegan and Sara Foundation, which fights for health, economic justice and representation for the LGBTQ community.
I wanted to talk to Sara because she’s basically a godparent of jealousy, given her album So Jealous. Sara is also one of the few artists I can think of who has been publicly candid about her feelings of professional jealousy, which I’ve been so personally grateful for.
Seasons of Jealousy
Sara Quin: Thinking about having this conversation, I was sort of going back through 25 years and thinking, oh, there’s been seasons of jealousy for me. It’s not always like that. And, you know, there’s like a multitude of reasons for that. But, I definitely think as I’ve gotten older, I actually feel less jealous and I think, I don’t know if that’s actually like a sign of, like, growth, or if I’m just dead inside.
Vivek Shraya: Maturity?
Sara Quin: I don’t know if it’s maturity. I think it’s just recognizing, too. I think one of the things that I always ask myself when I’m feeling discomfort about anything, you know, and that can be jealousy, that can be — there’s other emotions that I sometimes experience — in a way that I’m left feeling like, “why do I feel this way?” I feel really uncomfortable. And a lot of times it’s really just sitting down, asking myself, “if this is how I feel, okay, if I’m jealous of this artist, okay, what if what am I jealous of? Am I jealous because they have a really popular new album or, you know, they’re getting festivals that we don’t get?
Do I Really Want What They Have?
Sara Quin: I go back to this fundamental question of, do I really want what they have? Like, do I want that spot? And will that make me happy? Is that what I’m trying to achieve? And is that really directly correlated to, you know, correlating to that artist?
Like, is that about me and our career or is that literally like, I want what they have. And a lot of times I don’t want what other people have.
Vivek Shraya: Yeah.
Sara Quin: Like a lot of times I’m like, wait, I don’t want that. I used to feel this way about Fashion Week for some reason. When social media became a thing, it was one of the things that I remember being like, I’m so uncomfortable, like big fashion people don’t dress us. We don’t go to fashion week, we don’t get invited. And then I was like, do I want to go? No I don’t, absolutely not. I do not want to go.
Vivek Shraya: So where do you go from there? Because actually you’re bringing up something that hasn’t come up yet, which is that like — and this is something I actually do as well — where in that moment, I think, do I actually want to be doing what that artist is doing, or do I want that whatever. And I have often gotten to that place of being like, no, I’m doing my own other thing here.
So then where do you go from there? Do you find that the feeling, you know, disappears? Or is it just a good way for you to recalibrate?
Sara Quin: Well, I think in that specific instance, it’s an example of like okay, is that what I want? The answer is no. So now it’s like, what is that about? Why am I feeling left out of this thing, is it because I feel like other people think that we should have that? I think it’s like it’s important to sort of evaluate [my feelings about it].
I used to relish that to some degree. And I used to think of myself as somewhat of a masochist because I thought that to inspire myself and to really have, I don’t know, like interesting things to say, it had to sort of come from a dark place or a melancholic place or whatever, and I just, I just don’t have time for that anymore.
Sara Quin on Success That Brings Satisfaction
Vivek Shraya: So what you’re saying is the solution to professional jealousy is aging and parenthood.
Sara Quin: Yes. Although, I mean, I feel like this stopped, this somewhat dissipated even before parenthood. But yeah, I think, it just comes back to that thing of like, fine, you know, you’re jealous and you feel upset. I think the other problem is if you do decide, like, yes, I do want to be at Fashion Week and I do want people to care about me and my body and dress a certain way and, you know, all of these kinds of things, that’s a different problem.
Now you know that there’s a path if you really want those things, at least, you know, like, okay, well, I’m going to actively work towards this. And I’ve definitely had that. Like we didn’t achieve the kind of success that brought me a lot of satisfaction, in, you know, the first ten years of our career.
And I think we very publicly and confidently said, hey, we’re going to switch gears and we’re going to sort of tackle a different sort of genre of music, and we’re going to sort of aspire to different kinds of goals than we have in the past. And that was absolutely because I was like, I want to achieve things that I’ve seen other people achieve, and I’m jealous. So I want to do this too. And I wanted to forge a very unique path to do those things.
But, that’s different. Like, I think it’s actually easier when you’re like, I’m jealous and I want that. So now I will try to go about trying to get it…
Vivek Shraya: totally.
Sara Quin: The more complicated path, I think, is when you’re just like, why do I always feel bad about what everybody else is doing?
Why is that me? I don’t want what these people have, but I still feel bad by their success. So what does that mean?
Jealousy in the Canadian Music Scene
Vivek Shraya: You know, I can almost track my career. Oh, this sounds really bad, but I can almost track my career alongside very specific artists who I felt jealous of. And I’m curious, like, for you, especially as someone who’s, like, surrounded by other artists, if that’s something that you’ve run into, if there’s been specific individuals and if you’ve ever named that to that individual, have you named it to yourself? Have you ever become friends with one of them after? I’m just curious, like about the specificity of jealousy, I guess in the workplace.
Sara Quin: I would say in the first ten years of our career, I often felt like I wanted peers, I wanted friendships, and I wanted connections with the bands and artists that were, you know, I deemed cool or like, were in what I thought was our community or whatever.
I did sometimes feel jealous of bands, like I’ve said this publicly before, I remember feeling really jealous of Arcade Fire. I was living in Montreal and I saw them coming up and playing shows all the time. And then I remember they released their album Funeral the same day that we released our album So Jealous.
Vivek Shraya: Oh fuck.
Jealousy and So Jealous
Sara Quin: And I remember feeling that So Jealous was a big record for us. I remember I had a lot of confidence about the album and there were lots of things happening in our career behind the scenes. I knew we were sort of setting ourselves up for what was ultimately going to be our most successful record.
And it was, but it often felt overshadowed by Arcade Fire because it was like, we got Coachella, but we played right before Arcade Fire on the same stage. And I just remember thinking like, our set was great. We played in front of an absolutely gigantic crowd, which arguably was setting up to watch Arcade Fire.
I remember getting off stage of being like, “holy cow, that was like the biggest crowd we’ve ever played for.” And then like Arcade Fire’s crew being like, “get off the stage!” You know, like literally just get out of the way.
Which is completely fine. It’s chaotic when you’re switching over sets. Or, you know, Rolling Stone put So Jealous on their top 50 albums of the year. But like, not in the top ten like Arcade Fire. And you know back then everything was like physical copies of magazines, and whether it was the magazine or a newspaper, Arcade Fire would be on the cover, and we would be like a thing inside.
And it just became this thing that was in my mind. I think it was because I lived in Montreal and I saw those guys everywhere, and they were so nice. I felt so small and kind of invisible, and I really felt scrappy and like we were fighting for, you know, our survival or something.
And there were probably so many bands who felt that way about us when we started to blow up. So I recognized that there was like an ecosystem of like, we were all just trying to survive. I’m sure they were too! I just remember it was like that whole So Jealous cycle was just like, open whatever magazine, I’d look at Pitchfork or something, it’d be like Arcade Fire hanging out with David Bowie, Arcade Fire hanging out with David Byrne.
And I would just be like, I’m hanging out with Tegan, you know? Like, I don’t know, I always felt competitive with them, but that was probably the last time that I was that I can remember being really consumed by that sort of direct kind of competition.
Because then I mean, realistically, you know, once So Jealous was done and we were starting to put together The Con, I still felt like competitive with people, and I still felt like scrappy and like we were fighting and and getting, you know, climbing the ladder of success or whatever. I still had all that aspiration, but I just don’t remember it being so directly attached to one band, like the way that it was then.
Building Confidence With The Con
Vivek Shraya: Why do you think that changed? Do you think it was the success of So Jealous that gave you a certain kind of self-confidence as an artist?
Sara Quin: I think what happened around So Jealous and The Con was that I started to recognize that we were something unique.
[Producer John Collins] and I had a couple of conversations when we were making So Jealous because I was just really consumed by insecurity, and I really, really felt like people had been unfair about our band. I hated the press, that we would get hated, the reviews we would get. I was often bringing in music that I loved to say, like, oh, I want to — what about this sound, or what do you think they’re doing here? And I remember one time, John getting really fed up. I played him something and he was like, that band sounds like 50 other bands. That band won’t even exist in a year. What you have is unique, like what you and your sister do is different.
And it took many, many, many more conversations over many, many more years for me to really finally absorb that. But that was the beginning of that where I was like, yeah, maybe he’s right. And then you do start to see those bands go away. You know, like the band that I remember very specifically John being like, UGH, enough with this band, they don’t exist anymore, and he was right. There were so many bands that were very hot and cool and in the moment.
Vivek Shraya: Totally.
Sara Quin: But John, you know, he was basically saying like, look, you’ve got something special and just, you know, deal with it. And I think it was around that time that I started to see — which kind of goes back to what we were talking about at the beginning of this — which is like, I didn’t actually want to be Arcade Fire.
I didn’t want their success. I just wanted success that would satisfy me. So the journey becomes like, well, what’s going to make me feel satisfied? What do I want my career to look like and really start building out goals that way and you know, and for everybody it looks different.
Like for a lot of people, you know, getting the sunset spot at Coachella is like goals or getting SNL is goals, or sitting at fashion week is goals. I realized that I had a really special unique — even from Tegan — set of things that I wanted to achieve, and even if I didn’t achieve those things, once I figured out what those things were and I was sort of on the path, then I found I didn’t need to compare myself to other people as much because I was only really working for myself. Okay, I’m doing this for me. And that helped.
I wish I could go back to the time machine and tell, like insecure me in 2005, like, not only do you get to have a long career, but like it’s so much less competitive when you get older because you’re just like, “thank god we’re here.” That’s it. It’s just like, oh god, we made it.
Vivek Shraya and Art That Mobilizes
Vivek Shraya: Can you think of a time where you saw a piece of art, or you like, heard a song and it really mobilized you to, like, push yourself to write something else and like to, to achieve a certain kind of greatness for yourself where you’re like, fuck, I wish I wrote that, or I wish my stuff sounded like that. And then you actually sat down and it did mobilize you?
Sara Quin: I think that was the era of Heartthrob. Like, I think that I really liked what was happening in music. I remember being really into that artist, The Dream. And I was into Robyn, and I was into Alicia Keys. And that to me was like the most mainstream music I had listened to since I was listening to New Kids on the Block in the 80s.
I was like, I am into mainstream music. And I remember thinking, like, I found it compelling to think, oh, could I make music like this? You know, with the right partnership, our producer, you know, what would we sound like?
Sara Quin on Jealousy and Aliveness
Vivek Shraya: Is there any like, is there anything else you want to say about professional jealousy that we haven’t said? Or romantic jealousy, I guess?
Sara Quin: I think that jealousy can be wonderful and it’s I would say that when I was in my season of feeling jealous, I often felt so alive. So I mean, that is a positive thing. Like, you know, when you are so sensitive and you are so aware and you are so consumed, I mean, I think that’s like a beautiful thing.
I just don’t think it should be the way that you exist all the time. That’s my biggest thing.
Vivek Shraya: So you really are dead inside now is what you’re saying.
Sara Quin: Well, I like to think that I. I like to think that I’m dead inside, but also like, there are a few areas of me that are still very much alive. But yeah, I just don’t feel I just don’t feel consumed in that way anymore.
